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Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #200 en: Junio 20, 2017, 02:31:12 pm »
Sure! Thanks, Mike! For the offer and for the encouragement. The reason why I started writing in Spanish here was so that no one 'learnt' my mistakes, but I can certainly use the practice.

When you say your daughter's language ability wasn't as good as Laura's at her age, you mean in English, right? I bet her Spanish was as good as any other child's her age. If Laura could communicate better in either Spanish or English, I wouldn't worry.

Cita de: Mike
De lo que leo de tu inglés, me parece un nivel muy alto y desarrollado. Si tu pronunciación es buena, ¿cómo se puede separar tu inglés del mío lingüísticamente?
Thanks. I do love the language and try to learn as much as possible, but getting to the point where you feel as comfortable as a native speaker seems like an utopia to me. You live in Spain and your command of Spanish is great, but... do you think you and I can't be told apart when speaking Spanish, linguistically speaking? It would take you 2 seconds to know I'm a non-native.

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¿Cuatro palabras más que conozco yo y tú no?
Many! It may seem like I can communicate in English easily, and I'm not complaining, for a non-native, but I'd bet you know at least twice as many words as I do. I'm used to speaking with adults. My friends are sometimes amazed I know a certain word, but I don't know many everyday words because of not living in an English environment. Some words/concepts I learnt these past years have been simple ones like: lid, flip over, scoop up, turn on/off the faucet, scoot over, the right side up, bottle top, teething, teeth come IN (not OUT, unless you're losing a tooth), take that!... The other day I saw a funnel -which I just looked up again- and I wondered what its name was in English. Words aren't the worst part; it's the not knowing what word to use with some things, like "bote de crema". Today, I said "bottle", but then asked our American girl whether that was right. I've been saying "container" when it doubt because it works for everything.

And then I'm often in the middle of a sentence, speaking with my daughter, and I go: "the, ummmm..... uhhhh... [word I couldn't remember]".

I'll just have to keep on practising and learning until it gets better. The funny thing is my husband, whose English is more basic than mine, doesn't feel limited. I think I have a greater need of communicating, and doing so more in depth, than he does.
« Última modificación: Junio 21, 2017, 01:10:58 pm por Raquel »


Desconectado dvenezuela

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #201 en: Julio 15, 2017, 12:59:21 am »
Buenas!

El miedo a que se “pierda” el inglés, con la llegada del colegio y la interacción que esto implica,  es  igual para todos los que estamos en este reto de criar un niño bilingüe, en donde al parecer,  todo lo que rodea a nuestro hijo conspira en contra de nuestros esfuerzos.

Yo tengo una niña que está cumpliendo 3 años esta semana y hasta los momentos su uso del inglés es en un 95%. Ella entiende todo lo que le dice la mama (quien le habla en español) y puede seguir sus instrucciones en el día a día, pero sus respuestas son exclusivamente en inglés. Solo repite en español cuando escucha alguna palabra que le llama la atención, o con una sonrisa pícara, cuando  me dice “daddy it is not milk is leche” (o algo parecido) para que yo le diga que no entiendo eso de “leche” o “cambur” o “queso”.

Acá en Venezuela, los colegios bilingües son muy escasos (como muchas otras cosas) e igual de difícil es encontrar una persona que hable inglés nativo.    Es posible que muy pronto todo su inglés quede relegado a un segundo puesto,  pero al ser una lucha asimétrica, que no podremos ganar, debemos tratar de  minimizar los efectos de esta derrota tratando de que el “inglés” siempre sea algo especial.

Daniel


Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #202 en: Julio 18, 2017, 12:16:53 pm »
Muy cierto, Daniel. Por cierto ¡Enhorabuena por ese 95% en inglés! Con eso tienes media batalla ganada, porque su primer idioma es ahora el inglés, con 3 años. Es cuestión de tiempo que pase a serlo el español -y este es el objetivo, claro-, pero es en estos años en que los padres tenemos tanta importancia para los niños, en los que podemos aprovechar a meter todo lo que podamos de un segundo idioma. Luego los amigos y el entorno 'take over' y los niños se centran en hablar el idioma del entorno, que se convertirá en su primer idioma.

Si te consuela, nuestros colegios bilingües tienen poco de bilingües, la verdad, así que tampoco os perdéis mucho. Es verdad que tener un nativo que te eche una mano da tranquilidad, pero tampoco lo veo imprescindible. Si tú te manejas bien con el idioma, y seguro que es así, y no tienes problemas para comunicarte con tu hija, pues ya está. Al final nosotros también vamos aprendiendo con ellos y adaptándonos a sus necesidades según se van haciendo mayores.

¡Bienvenido!

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #203 en: Julio 21, 2017, 12:15:05 pm »
Today our American nanny/friend (Chelsea) told me that they went to the zoo the other day and when they were in a playground there is, there was an English family, but Laura kept trying to speak Spanish to them, including their little girl. Chelsea told Laura to speak English with them to no avail; she would speak Spanish to them and English to Chelsea, haha. The parents said to Chelsea that it was okay, that she was just learning, but Chelsea told them Laura's first language was actually English. It surprised me since my dad, the only person who sometimes speaks English and sometimes Spanish to her, says she'll answer in whatever language he uses, but I guess the connection children-Spanish is too strong in my daughter's mind to follow the speak-in-what-you're-spoken-in rule. This convinced me even more, if that's even possible, that this summer's short trip to England is what she needs. I just hope she'll speak English to the children she meets there!

Desconectado Mike

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #204 en: Julio 24, 2017, 03:33:14 pm »
Mmm. Interesting.

Laura is still very little and possibly learnt behaviour is still stronger than reason at her age ie. children = Spanish association despite telling Laura they were English. I imagine that only when Laura realizes she's drawing a blank and getting nowhere speaking in Spanish will she change over. I hope you provide us with a little "write up" about your English trip to the UK and the linguistic happenings.

Mike   ;)


Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #205 en: Julio 24, 2017, 07:46:57 pm »
Very true. I read the other day about a family (2 Brits living in Spain with their son) who said their son wouldn't speak English to children from age 3 to age 5, even if these children only spoke and understood English. I hope this is not the case with Laura!!

Mike, her learned behaviour is definitely stronger than reason for Laura. She's still very little and there are many times when I tried to explain something to her and I get a blank expression from her, followed by one of her random thoughts.

I'll be more than happy to let you know all about our trip to England this summer *crossing fingers she gets to play with other children in English*

Well, I wanted to share something funny that she said yesterday. I sometimes worry that with just 2 people -well, now 3 with Chelsea- who speak English in her life, there are many expressions and words she doesn't understand. She's been using -and missusing- lots of words she's heard on TV or she's heard when we read them books. Well, yesterday, she wanted to put on one of her costumes, her "Cinderella dress":

Laura: Mommy, may I put on this dress?
Me: It's too hot, Laura. If you put it on, you'll be hot. But if you still want to wear it, be my guest.
Laura: [thinks for a little while] Mommy, I think I want to be your guest.
So there was I, trying not to laugh, but failing at it  ;D ;D ;D Then I told her that was just an expression that meant she could do whatever she wanted about the dress.

Don't be too impressed by that "may I" construction: 1) because I'm just paraphrasing and 2) because we make her use it all the time when she wants something, i.e. "may I have milk" instead of "I want milk". She used to say "I have milk" when she was younger.

Desconectado Mike

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #206 en: Julio 31, 2017, 05:55:12 pm »
Lovely anecdote!  ;D

Mmm. I think the teaching of civil English is not just a nicety but essential for correct colloquial English. My daughter definitely says "please" and "thank you" more than the equivalents in Spanish. This "polite" language is part of the way the English speak and not "cursilandia" as some Spanish onlookers have commented. Carmen also says "Can I / May I be excused?" after a meal together with us.

Mike  ;)

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #207 en: Agosto 03, 2017, 02:19:21 pm »
I agree that English is more polite than Spanish, by far!! There are lots of cultural aspects to take into account when learning a language, and this one is definitely one of these.

I see Spanish children saying "mamá, quiero...", when an adult would always say something nicer like "mamá ¿Me pasas...?", which isn't nearly as polite as you'd say the same thing in English, but definitely nicer than "quiero". I don't know if part of the reason why we insisted on her being polite when asking for things was that English is a more polite language or if it was just that we feel she's old enough to speak more correctly... It could also be that, because we're speaking in our 2nd language, we analyze more the language aspect.

"May I be excused?" Wow!! You can imagine how overly polite that sounds to my Spanish ears, but I love it!! I'll keep it in mind for when my daughter is a bit older... at the moment, I would be happy if she could remain seated for a whole meal  ;D

Desconectado Mike

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #208 en: Agosto 03, 2017, 06:39:51 pm »
Interestingly, it's what we had to say when we were children. One seems to continue the same moral and lexical tradition. That's an aspect you obviously lack by having switched languages. (Of course, I don't mean that as a negative point but just as a very influential linguistic factor.) It makes me realize just how much of what Carmen has learnt and how she behaves is a simple transference of my own parents values and associated language. Many of these phrases are almost automatically produced on my part. As a parent, I look for parent language to use and that's the only reference I have. In other words, many of the platitudes, sayings, domestic phraseology especially I use with Carmen are copied directly from my childhood days. I imagine you too tranfer values from your own parents to your children but of course not the associated language. I think this is an important point and makes your attempt to bring up a child speaking in English doubly effortful, doubly admirable.

I need to make a note of this language and publish it here.

Mike

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #209 en: Agosto 04, 2017, 10:49:35 pm »
Interestingly, it's what we had to say when we were children.
Well, of course!! Don't we all do that? I feel that I translate or adapt to the English way of saying things all the things I was told as a child.

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That's an aspect you obviously lack by having switched languages.
Exactly!! And this is what makes it so difficult! Learning vocabulary is easy compared to knowing what to say in each situations, especially the ones you are never exposed to, as we -parents speaking a second language to their children- never had the chance of learning what all the parenting sayings/vocabulary.

Citar
I think this is an important point and makes your attempt to bring up a child speaking in English doubly effortful, doubly admirable.
I don't know how admirable it is, but it IS hard  ;)

Citar
I need to make a note of this language and publish it here.
That would be 'oh-so-helpful' and so very much appreciated, Mike! Although I imagine it would take you forever to put together all these things we're constantly saying to our children. This makes me think of a song -sung by a comedian- called "The Mom" where she says in one song many of those things that are typically said by parents... it was hilarious, but also very helpful to me!! Now I know how to say "no texting at the table" and other parenting expressions that will come in handy soon, I bet!
« Última modificación: Septiembre 01, 2017, 02:56:47 pm por Raquel »

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #210 en: Septiembre 06, 2017, 02:45:34 pm »
Hi all!! I'm back home -and back to work, ugh!-. I wanted to tell you all about our vacation in England:

We spent 7 days at a 'Holiday Park' with mobile homes and something like a social club, but in a more informal way. We signed Laura up for 2 of the children activities every day: morning and evening. She understood everything but these weren't activities where children had to speak with one another. We spent a lot of time in a soft play area (what I've always called a "ball pit", but now I know a new term for it, yay!) where children played a lot, and so did mine. Most children there were older than Laura (between 6 and 11 y.o.), so they let Laura play with them, but didn't even try to catch her when they were playing tag, which is okay, because she was just as happy to run with the other kids. The 10-11 year old girls all wanted to play with my son, so he got a lot of exposure, haha. Laura spoke Spanish to all children at first. She would speak English to us, then some other kid would speak English to her and she would reply in Spanish. Even if we told her to say something to some child, she translated it into Spanish for them, haha. Something like: "Laura, ask if you can play with them" "¿Puedo jugar?" There were times when she did speak English to other children, but maybe just a few words.

After, we spent 3 days just sight-seeing. One day, we were having dinner somewhere, and there was this little toy house for children to play in (something like a tree house, but not in a tree), and Laura started playing with a girl her age. She spoke English with her all the time and they were communicating like any other 2 children -you can imagine how proud this mom was!- After a while, they had a disagreement, and Laura stood her ground -which she's never done in Spanish-. It opened my eyes to the fact that my daughter has been acting differently than she would with other children if it wasn't because of the language barrier she has here in Spain. It made me feel sad, but I know it's only a matter of time before she can communicate perfectly in Spanish -in fact, she's been standing her ground ever since we came back, as her Spanish has improved too-. So all in all, our trip was a big success. I loved having everything in English around us, when watching a short movie at an amusent park, speaking with anyone or watching TV. She also learned quite a bit, and I could see she was trying to as well. There was a time when we were on a ride and the mom in front of us said "off we go", and my daughter repeated after her "off we go!" I'm already thinking of going back to the UK next year.

Desconectado Mike

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #211 en: Septiembre 09, 2017, 09:20:46 am »
Thanks for sharing that with use, Raquel.

So all in all a positive experience and a learning experience for you too (as I too learnt from our trip to the UK):
http://www.englishspanishlink.com/community-forum/index.php/topic,341.0.html

Interesting your comment on how some linguistic faculties that are still not developed actually affected Laura's behaviour. For example, how you observed she failed to assert herself in Spanish when at home. I noticed the same but took it as a plus when directed at her parents. My daughter may use turns of phrase she learns at school with her mother which sound disagreeable when she's angry (though I'm not referring to swear words, which she doesn't use. Well  ::) ). Fortunately, (I suppose) through lack of exposure to peurile bickering in English, she doesn't speak to me in that way so I'm spared all that. However, you're right, children do need to assert themselves among their peers and in that way they develop essential social skills and peer hierarchy. As you say, I'm sure that situation will be short-lived.

Can you tell us the name of the Holiday Park - was it Butlins! "Hi-dee-hi! Hi-dee-ho!"  ;)

Mike

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #212 en: Septiembre 13, 2017, 01:20:07 pm »
Can you tell us the name of the Holiday Park - was it Butlins! "Hi-dee-hi! Hi-dee-ho!"  ;)
It was actually the Hayling Island Holiday Park, but I'll be looking up Butlins to see where it is and what ammenities it offers ;)

Laura has been talking so much more lately; she makes up -never-ending- stories and her vocabulary is much richer. She sometimes uses future and past tenses correctly, especially future tenses, but anything in the past is still "yesterday" to her, and you can't believe what she says she's done, as she makes things up. I can't wait for her to differentiate between reality and fiction.

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #213 en: Septiembre 19, 2017, 01:57:22 pm »
Laura lleva unos días que se inventa palabras en inglés basadas en el español, como "tapping" en vez de "tapando" (y eso que cada vez le recuerdo lo que significa "tapping" y le digo que quiere decir "covering"). También está empezando a decir palabras en español porque no se acuerda de su equivalente en inglés, aunque lo ha usado mil veces, como ayer que quería su "patinete", y cuando me hice la loca me dice "la patineta". En cuanto le pregunté si se refería a su "scooter" empezó a usar la palabra, pero me da una rabia cuando hace eso!!

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #214 en: Septiembre 22, 2017, 09:43:17 am »
Se me olvidó comentaros lo que pasó el otro día, que me encantó. Últimamente leemos muchos libros en verso, tanto del Dr. Seuss como de Julia Donaldson. Habíamos leído, haría un par de días, One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish, donde sale unos versos que dicen algo tal que así: "my feet are cold, my teeth are gold, I have a bird I like to hold" y Laura comenta "mommy, my hands are cold", y tras un segundo sigue "I have a cat I like to hold", cogiendo su gato de peluche. Me encantó que se hubiera quedado con el verso, pero sobre todo que lo adaptara a su situación, cambiando "bird" por "cat". Por cierto, que después de leer cualquiera de estos libros me encuento hablando en verso sin darme cuenta, jeje.

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #215 en: Septiembre 26, 2017, 01:03:05 pm »
I always forget to tell you guys my daughter's version of "wasn't", which is no other than "didn't be". You got to love grammar regularities. I know she'll correct it eventually, so I just laugh inside every time I hear it... and correct it out loud, that too ;)

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #216 en: Octubre 02, 2017, 02:34:16 pm »
El otro día, preguntando a Laura sobre sus amigas, nos comentó que una de ellas se burla de ella por su forma de hablar en español (aún suena bastante guiri y los niños de su edad le sacan como 1 año en desarrollo del español). Ella no lo llamó burlarse, sino que dijo que la niña hablaba como ella. Lo bueno es que no le preocupaba gran cosa. Le dijimos que eso era porque esta niña tenía envidia de que Laura podía hablar 2 idiomas y ella sólo 1. Además tiene una amiga que de vez en cuando le pregunta cómo decir cosas en inglés y tiene interés por "hablar como Laura", lo cual también nos ayuda en argumento, aunque a mi hija le importe nada y menos. El caso es que entre mi argumento y el de su padre, que fue "next time, speak to her in English and we'll see how well she does", Laura está ahora súper orgullosa de hablar inglés. YAY!!  ;D

Desconectado Mike

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Orgullo de hablar dos idiomas
« Respuesta #217 en: Octubre 08, 2017, 10:01:41 am »
Sí, Raquel.

Es cierto que mi hija también obviamente se siente especial por su habilidad de hablar en dos idiomas. Y lo que es interesante es que nunca le he escuchado presumir de ello delante de sus amigas o burlarse de ellos por su monolingüismo (she doesn't show off). Quizás, el comportamiento de presumir de cualquier persona se base en la inseguridad y una persona que de verdad posee algún talento, habilidad no se siente la necesidad de presumir - ni siquiera los niños.

Mike   ;)
(Padre de niña bilingüe de 8 años)

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #218 en: Octubre 10, 2017, 12:27:12 pm »
Ahora que dices eso, me he acordado de algo curioso, no tiene que ver con jactarse (showing off) o burlarse, pero sí con los niños queriendo fastidiar a otros; yo creo que es algo humano, que de mayores aprendemos que está mal. Mi hija tiene una amiga 1 año mayor que ella, y el año pasado esta niña solía enseñarle juguetes que sabía le gustarían a Laura, y luego no se los dejaba. Yo pensaba para mí que qué mala idea, pero luego mi hija le ha hecho lo mismo a su primo (y se ha llevado la bronca, claro) y más tarde su primo (que es un niño súper cariñoso y buenazo), se lo ha hecho a mi hijo.

Mi -humilde y desinformada- opinión, es que tu hija ve su bilingüismo como algo normal, nada de lo que presumir, y el monolingüismo de sus compañeros, como lo habitual, por lo que no puede ser motivo de burla. Si se tratara de una niña que hubiera pasado 1 año en un país angloparlante, mejorando mucho su inglés, no me extrañaría que estuviera deseando luego demostrar estos nuevos conocimientos, pero tu hija ha sido bilingüe siempre, Mike, por lo que es parte de ella y no una novedad.

En el caso de Laura estamos intentando que se sienta orgullosa de ello, para que no venga un día a casa diciendo que no quiere hablar inglés.

Desconectado Mike

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Re:RAQUEL
« Respuesta #219 en: Ayer a las 12:15:11 pm »
De verás, espero que eso nunca se le ocurrirá a Laura. Quizás, si el inglés forme parte de la vida diaria en casa, Laura no detecterá que el inglés se creó en su hogar únicamente para ella y por tanto verá que es inútil prohibir su uso. Creo que es así en mi casa pero quizás este ambiente es más fácil promover por mi aspecto y esencia inglesa. Erradicar el inglés en casa será de desterrar a "daddy"!

Mike  :D


 

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