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Autor Tema: MIKE  (Leído 8084 veces)

Desconectado Mike

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MIKE
« en: Febrero 15, 2015, 10:04:47 am »
Ayer mi hija ha dicho por primera vez y sin haber escuchado una corrección en muchos días:

"Can you hold this for me?"

Me ha sorprendido porque por fin ha dejado de decir "Hold me this" - una clara influencia de castellano.

No sé si la corrección exlícita vale o no. Pero ahora lo considero como un "input" suplementaria. Tarda en filtrarse en la mente de mi hija pero en estas situaciones de un input reducido, la corrección toma su papel quizás. A ver si sigue utilizando la misma frase correcta desde ahora en adelante...  :)

Mike (padre de hija de 5 años)


Desconectado Raquel

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Re: MIKE
« Respuesta #1 en: Marzo 03, 2015, 02:48:25 pm »
¡Qué ilusión, Mike! Te daría una alegría oírlo. Enhorabuena y que siga mejorando tanto y tan rápido. En un par de añitos te va a dar lecciones ella a ti, ya verás.

Desconectado Mike

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Re: MIKE
« Respuesta #2 en: Marzo 04, 2015, 06:42:09 am »
Gracias, Raquel

Sí, con 5 años estoy viendo que el niño es muy diferente que con 3 - es más consciente del lenguaje que produce y es capaz de tomar "un paso atrás" y contemplar no sólo el mensaje pero también cómo lo dice. Así es frecuente:

Carmen: "I see Sofía at school today".
Me: "I 'saw'...
Carmen: "Yes, yes. I forget. I 'saw' Sofía."
Me: I 'forgot'...
Carmen: "Yes, yes. I forgot - I see Sofía at school today".

Bueno, no es palabra por palabra - pero es frecuente este tipo de autocorrección en Carmen. Es como si la versión correcta está justo por debajo de la superficie pero por costumbre, comodidad prefiere el tiempo presente.

Mike

Desconectado Raquel

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Re: MIKE
« Respuesta #3 en: Marzo 04, 2015, 11:39:27 am »
Who can blame her? Tenses must be difficult for children. What surprised me is that you corrected that "forget". I've heard it used in the present tense, meaning that they "forgot" something, countless times. I may have only heard it in the States, but it's very common. I even asked a friend of mine, who's a grammar buff, and she said it was correct. I think she didn't understand why I thought it should have been "forgot" instead of "forget".

I'm so envious of all of you having older children, because you actually get to hear them speak English and can even have a conversation with them. This isn't a complaint, just saying it must be nice to see all our hard work paying off. I know will get there, but in the meantime, I'm a little envious ;)

Desconectado Mike

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Re: MIKE
« Respuesta #4 en: Marzo 05, 2015, 09:41:11 am »
If you say "I forget", you're really using present simple for a general action (I always forget etc.)

In the UK, anyway, and in everyday spoken English, when you make a reference to the past, even if just a moment ago, we use "forgot".
"Sorry. I forgot"

Use "I've forgotten" if there is a present result:
"Oh, no. I've forgotten the keys"

The use of "forget" to refer to past events is often seen in literary English.
"would give you a rough idea of the position of the sun. I forget which you're trying to establish."

Also, to avoid the present continuous "am forgetting", we use the simple:
"Ince has developed into a player of substance and people forget he is still only 24."

Yet there are well known phrases that will use the continuous too:
"Sorry, I'm forgetting my manners"

I suggest you teach your child "I forgot" and not "I forget" in the example of my dialogue with Carmen. Otherwise, it would sound like she was speaking from a Jane Austin novel!

Where did I get these wonderful phrases from? Try the British National Corpus tool:
http://corpus.byu.edu/bnc/x.asp?r1=&w=1093&h=614

Insert word - click on section for type of English register (spoken etc) - the click on the word in the results to see example phrases - look to the left for more keys on the register context.

Mike

Desconectado Raquel

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Re: MIKE
« Respuesta #5 en: Marzo 05, 2015, 10:41:57 am »
Thanks Mike!

What you wrote is what I've always used. But I've heard many Americans say "I forget" when I would have said "I forgot" or "I've forgotten"; things like: "What was I doing? I forget" "What I did yesterday, you ask? I forget". It always stood out to me because it sounded wrong to my Spanish ears, but it obviously wasn't when they were all using it. Now that I know my way is also correct and I can keep saying it the way I've always had, I'll definitely do that; mostly because it's easier, hehe.

Desconectado Mike

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Re: MIKE
« Respuesta #6 en: Marzo 09, 2015, 07:47:44 am »
Well, Raquel. I think I'm going to confuse you more! As in the example I gave:

Citar
Also, to avoid the present continuous "am forgetting", we use the simple:
"Ince has developed into a player of substance and people forget he is still only 24."

...we do use present simple to express something happening now to avoid the awkward (or impossible) continuous (as we do with many verbs):

I didn't realize that before but I SEE now.
I'd forgotten about that but now I REMEMBER.

Your American friends are right and this usage is heard in UK too but I detect a difference between:

"What I did yesterday, you ask? I forget" and:

Me: "I 'saw'...
Carmen: "Yes, yes. I forget. I 'saw' Sofía."

In the first, there is an obvious reference to the present; she didn't forget yesterday; she's forgotten now so the simple or present perfect also possible. In the second, Carmen refers to the past mistake she's  just made; I detected no present meaning so "I forgot".

Epilogue: Was Carmen thinking "Oh, no, I always forget to use my past tenses!"? If so, I concede and admit Carmen could have said "I forget" and have been correct.

I think the key is does the action refer to present or past? Even the Americans and Jane Austen would admit you must say:
"Did you remember to close the door?"
"Oh, no. I forgot!"

Present reference: I forget, I've forgotten (in some set expressions "I'm forgetting")
Past reference: I forgot.

Hope this helps.  :-[

Desconectado Raquel

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Re: MIKE
« Respuesta #7 en: Marzo 09, 2015, 10:53:45 am »
It sure does!! I think I get it now! So while in Spanish the idea of forgetting doesn't happen now, but a while back: if you don't remember something now (you forgot it), you most likely wouldn't have remembered it an hour ago. In Spanish, we would have used the past tense in all these sentences.

¿Qué estaba haciendo? Lo he olvidado (I bet Latin Americans would say "lo olvidé").
¿Que qué estaba haciendo ayer, preguntas? Lo he olvidado.

Because we don't forget things when we're asked about them, but somewhere between the time when they happened and when we're asked. But maybe in English you forget things when you try to recall them for whatever reason. Carmen forgot when she made a mistake, 2 seconds ago.

And now my head is spinning, haha. But not because of your explanation! That actually finally cleared it up. Now I just have to wrap my head around the idea of "forgetting" working differently in English. Mil gracias!! I've been wondering about this for years!

Desconectado Mike

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Bottom up or top down?
« Respuesta #8 en: Noviembre 26, 2015, 09:28:58 am »
We talk about "bottom up" teaching when we teach new vocabulary and structures of a foreign language to our students. This is obviously the usual way to teach. Students are not usually given exposure to the language in a communicative way before they learn the grammar but learn it at the same time, the same class.

"Top down" is teaching (or contextualising) structures when students already have had a large amount of exposure to the language in a communicative way so will have heard if not assimilated those structures properly.

Last night, I helped my daughter with her English homework where she had to give a presentation about a brief family tree she had drawn. As I helped her, it was interesting to see how she easily accepted my corrections on "his" and "her": "her brother is called..."; "his daughter's name is...". She has till now used these words incorrectly and corrective feedback has not helped very much. But having a task such as this presentation made my daughter centre more on what she was saying - and I got the impression the message was sinking in.

Conclusion? Although I don't feel bottom up teaching is suitable or useful to our bilingual children, I do think top down can be useful. Top down doesn't really "teach"; it puts existing structures into meaningful context. The task helps the child's thinking and communicative needs and gives salience to problem areas in her language and as long as the task is meaningful (eg. preparing a presentation for the rest of the class) it can be useful.

Your thoughts?

Mike (father of 6-year-old)

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:MIKE
« Respuesta #9 en: Diciembre 17, 2015, 11:27:20 am »
Mike, I love it when you get so technical, because it shows us how much there is to learn about language development and learning, but I must confess I'm still not sure of the difference between bottom up and top down teaching methods. Is bottom up going from simple things to more complex ones? I think I need examples. Sorry.

But I'm glad to hear that your daughter's assignment helped with learning the difference between her and his. It also makes me feel better because I see my daughter clearly doesn't understand where we're getting at when we try to explain that something that's daddy's is his, because he's a 'boy' and mommy's things are 'hers' because I'm a 'girl'. She does try, but I can tell she's too young, and I now realize just how young she is to understand something like this!

Raquel
(mom to a 2-year old)

Desconectado Mike

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Teaching grammar top down
« Respuesta #10 en: Diciembre 18, 2015, 05:04:16 pm »
Well, top down teaching can be put in other contexts to make it clearer. Basically, it refers to the fact that we understand concepts better if we have had some experience of them beforehand. This happens a lot in our lives. If someone gave you (from Madrid, aren't you?) and your friend (from Barcelona and who didn't know Madrid) directions of how to get from Puerta del Sol to Atocha train station, you would undertand the directions better as you know the city, you visualise places as you listen, you can follow the route in you head. Your friend would have more difficulty in understanding and remembering the directions as the places mentioned are totally new to her. For you its top down and for your friend, bottom up.

Usually, in schools, grammar and structures are taught while children have no previous experience of using them (bottom up). They have difficulties in understanding and learning is slow or even useless. Our bilingual children get the experience of the language through usage from their parents although they might be inaccurate in using the structures. So, when we give explanations of those structures and how they work, they will understand those explanations better - through having previous working knowledge.

Of course, my daughter is older and very small children are not capable of comprending grammar at 2 or 3. But my point is, that we can safely teach explicit grammar when the children are able to understand such concepts and they will understand it far more quickly than their L2 learner counterparts. In other words, teaching grammar is not taboo when it is done top down and in fact can be very useful.

I hope this helps.

Mike   ;)

Desconectado Raquel

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Accelerating language input in the English language classroom.
« Respuesta #11 en: Diciembre 21, 2015, 11:48:18 am »
It sure does! I get it now. So basically, children at school are learning the rules first, then trying to put them into practice, while our children have already been putting them into practice (sometimes making mistakes) and we're talking about telling them about these rules later, so that it helps them better understand how not to make those mistakes. Definitely much easier this way! The problem with learning a language at school is that there isn't enough time to devote to the language, so you have to study and learn rules, while just speaking doesn't require studying, as you pick it up as you go, but it's much more time consuming. Does this make sense?

I agree that the natural way is much better, just not possible for everyone. A lot of parents tell me how lucky Laura is that we speak English to her and say they wish they could do the same, but they don't speak English, so it isn't an option. I see Maribel and her husband teaching their daughter all those languages and I feel the same way, but since we only speak English and Spanish, we can't add more languages ourselves. I speak a little French, but not enough to hold a conversation with anyone.
« Última modificación: Diciembre 22, 2015, 12:34:41 pm por Mike »

Desconectado Mike

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Re:MIKE
« Respuesta #12 en: Diciembre 22, 2015, 12:29:36 pm »
Yes, that's right, Raquel. And the point of all this is that explicit grammar teaching (criticised by many as academic and not effective for to speak the language) can be useful in a top-down scenario.

Citar
The problem with learning a language at school is that there isn't enough time to devote to the language, so you have to study and learn rules, while just speaking doesn't require studying, as you pick it up as you go, but it's much more time consuming.

Actually, Raquel, I believe there are ways to accelerate language input in the classroom and simulate the "pick it up as you go" approach that our own children benefit from. This is the basis of my research of my thesis. You've seen this before, I know, but here's the link to my website on one such approach:
http://www.gestureway.com/

Mike

Desconectado Mike

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Re:MIKE
« Respuesta #13 en: Enero 10, 2016, 09:31:16 am »
My daughter confuses "What's the matter?" with "What's happening?". I think this could be from Spanish influence.

Carmen looking at a book: "Daddy, what's the matter in this picture?"

She means "what's happening?" of course.

I assume this is the influence from the Spanish "¿Qué pasa? Spanish has an increasing influence on her English to an extent that she may temporariliy "forget" words in English. Fortunately, she will ask me "How do you say "tal" in English?" (in English).

Her bond to English, her insistance in never speaking to me in Spanish, has been so important and is what keeps our bilingual project alive. I urgently advise encouraging this bond from an early age with at least one parent.

Mike (6-year-old)

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:MIKE
« Respuesta #14 en: Enero 14, 2016, 09:59:41 am »
That's great, Mike. I believe all these mix-ups are phases they go through when dealing with 2 different languages. English may be influencing her Spanish too somehow. I'm sure they'll disappear with time. Languages are such complex things! It's no wonder they sometimes make these mistakes, especially at such a young age.

But it's fantastic that she still wants to speak with you in English. As long as you can keep that up, her English will be fine. That's my biggest fear, for Laura to come to me someday and say she's done with English and she wants us to speak Spanish with her... yikes!!

Desconectado Mike

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Re:MIKE
« Respuesta #15 en: Febrero 12, 2016, 10:15:49 am »
You know, school English does have its advantages for our bilingual kids. They learn things there by rote, which can help consolidate language areas more difficult to learn by our "natural method".

Carmen has an English exam today on the days of the week. What she needed to do was to learn them in order. Now she is beginning to understand time concepts better, it seems to make sense she should learn them. I used a technique used in antiquity to remember lists in order. You go to a part of the house and build up a mental image there of something that sounds like the first day: Monday. So that was by the washing machine, where Mummy does the washing on Mondays - Mummy - Monday. Then to the oven, here we make a meal; there are two knobs on the oven - Two - Tuesday. Then to a corner of the living-room where she used to play with her Wendy house - Wendy - Wednesday. The other linking words in different parts of the house were "thirsty (a tap) - Thursday"; "Frying food - Friday"; "Sat on the sofa - Saturday"; "Sun (looking out of the window) - Sunday".

It worked great! I told Carmen to remember in her head the route she took in the house, and when she did she got the words in the right order. Today the exam. Let's see how she does!

Mike (father of daughter of 6)

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Re:MIKE
« Respuesta #16 en: Febrero 12, 2016, 10:21:43 am »
Qué idea más genial Mike! me la apunto!

No olvides contarnos qué tal ha ido!  ;)

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Re:MIKE
« Respuesta #17 en: Febrero 12, 2016, 10:50:15 am »
Además de lo de la imagen mental, que lo había oído en series pero no sabía exactamente en qué consistía el método (siempre hablaban de "a mental palace" pero no lo explicaban), me llama la atención que gracias a aprender los días de la semana en el colegio empiece a entender mejor el concepto de tiempo.

Y el truquillo yo también me lo apunto. Recuerdo que para memorizar a nosotros nos enseñaron 2 truquillos: a) hacer una frase con todos los conceptos, como la famosa "Reina (REINO) un TIPO en esta CLASE que ORDENa las FAMILIAS en GÉNEROS y ESPECIES" o b) inventarse una palabra con la primera sílaba de cada palabra que se quiere recordar "RE-TI-CLA-OR-FA-GEn-ES" (la N supongo que se añadía porque GE-ES sonaba mal).

Sí, cuéntanos qué tal el examen. Seguro que bien con ese truquillo.

Desconectado Mike

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Re:MIKE
« Respuesta #18 en: Febrero 15, 2016, 10:13:35 am »
You're very well informed, Raquel! "The Castle of Memory" was a medieval treatise on this memory technique.

Unfortunately, my daughter forgot that it was a music exam she had and not an English exam last Friday. Perhaps this week?

Here's another mnemonic for you: "Richard of York gains battles in vain". The first letter of each word tells you the order of something. But what? Anybody know or guess?

Mike

Desconectado Raquel

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Re:MIKE
« Respuesta #19 en: Febrero 15, 2016, 11:20:05 am »
More than well informed, I must watch too much TV, haha  ;) But I still didn't know what that mental thing came from, just knew it was used.

Oh no! Poor thing, studying the wrong subject! How did the music exam go? The good thing is she already knows the days of the week for when that English exam does take place, whenever that is.

I had never heard that last one, Mike!! I tried to guess but it was hopeless, so I googled it, hehe. I won't say a thing so as not to spoil it for anyone who wants to give it a try  :-X

Anybody know or guess?
I always have trouble with these informal questions where the auxiliary verb is ommited. I always want to add the third-person-singular S, even though I've been told before not to, but I can't help it!! Your writing in English always helps. I learn new words, sayings, and am reminded of things I struggle with. So thanks!


 

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